Author Topic: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?  (Read 311 times)

miketheratguy

  • Posts: 30
Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« on: June 18, 2017, 11:48:54 AM »
I just saw a video of someone testing Oblige 7.50 and found it to be a good representation of the kind of map style that I'm looking for. I understand that there's no way to know for sure what settings a person used, I was wondering if some of the experts here would be able to watch or at least skim the video and give me a suggestion as to what settings I should use (ie likelihood of big rooms, etc.) to generate the same style of map as this one.

In particular I'd like to know what the visual theme is - I love the "look" of this place - but in general I just really love the layout. To me it's essentially a perfect mixture of open areas, narrow passages, corners and turns, and rooms that are just right in size (with one especially impressive centerpiece area at the 2 minute mark).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoRQ9Stfn9c

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2017, 12:48:38 PM »
Looks like he used "Some" for outdoor amount and the "Tech" theme.

miketheratguy

  • Posts: 30
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2017, 12:57:50 PM »
Thank you very much. I'll start with those settings and see what I can generate. Would your guess be that the other architecture settings were kept at default?

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2017, 03:13:11 PM »
Unsure, wouldn't be able to tell unless I had access to the OBLIGDAT text lump inside said WAD file.

Herculine

  • Doom Kitty
  • Posts: 67
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 01:08:47 PM »
Yeah, considering the randomness factors involved, it's really difficult to tell exactly what settings were used to generate that particular map.

Though it doesn't answer your question, I thought this might be a good place to share the config settings that I've enjoyed using, which consistently generate interesting maps that fit my own play style and skill level.

Code: [Select]
-- CONFIG FILE : OBLIGE 7.50
-- OBLIGE Level Maker (C) 2006-2016 Andrew Apted
-- http://oblige.sourceforge.net/

game = doom2
mode = coop
engine = gzdoom
length = game
seed = 0

theme = hell
size = extreme
outdoors = mixed
caves = mixed

mons = heaps
strength = medium
weapons = more
items = more
health = less
ammo = more

---- Modules ----

@doom_mon_control = 1

Spiderdemon = scarce
caco = default
gunner = default
skull = default
demon = default
knight = default
vile = scarce
zombie = default
Cyberdemon = scarce
ss_nazi = none
baron = default
spectre = default
arach = default
mancubus = default
revenant = default
pain = default
imp = default
shooter = default

@doom_weapon_control = 1

super = default
chain = default
launch = default
bfg = default
plasma = default
shotty = default

@export_map = 0

@extra_settings = 1

start_together = yes
pistol_starts = no

@heretic_mon_control = 0

warrior = default
Ironlich = default
Maulotaur = default
sabreclaw = default
gargoyle = default
nitro = default
golem = default
weredragon = default
fire_garg = default
D_Sparil = default
ophidian = default
disciple = default

@heretic_weapon_control = 0

crossbow = default
gauntlets = default
hellstaff = default
claw = default
firemace = default
phoenix = default

@level_control = 1

secrets = mixed
big_rooms = mixed
teleporters = mixed
doors = mixed
liquids = mixed
windows = less
traps = mixed
mon_variety = heaps
cages = rare
keys = heaps
darkness = mixed
switches = mixed
steepness = mixed

@mini_mastermind = 1

@music_swapper = 1

@quake2_mon_control = 0

Huge_flyer = default
parasite = default
beserker = default
brain = default
enforcer = default
grenader = default
medic = default
guard = default
guard_mg = default
Super_tank = default
tank_cmdr = default
flyer = default
shark = default
tank = default
gladiator = default
maiden = default
mutant = default
icarus = default
guard_sg = default
technician = default

@quake2_weapon_control = 0

rocket = default
rail = default
machine = default
shotty = default
chain = default
ssg = default
bfg = default
hyper = default
grenade = default

@quake_mon_control = 0

grunt = default
fiend = default
Shambler = default
ogre = default
enforcer = default
fish = default
dog = default
knight = default
tarbaby = default
dth_knight = default
Vore = default
scrag = default
zombie = default

@quake_weapon_control = 0

rocket = default
nailgun = default
ssg = default
nailgun2 = default
zapper = default
grenade = default

@sktag_mon_control = 0

cacolant = default
superguy = default
darkimp = default
bldemon = default
abaddon = default
belphegor = default
hectebus = default

@sktag_mons = 0

def_mon = some
def_weap = some

@sktag_weap_control = 0

bfg10k = default
minigun = default
glaunch = default
railgun = default

@sky_generator = 1

@stealth_mon_control = 1

stealth_demon = plenty
stealth_baron = none
stealth_zombie = none
stealth_caco = none
stealth_imp = none
stealth_mancubus = none
stealth_arach = none
stealth_revenant = none
stealth_shooter = none
stealth_vile = none
stealth_knight = none
stealth_gunner = none

@stealth_mons = 0

qty = more

@zdoom_marine_control = 0

marine_bfg = default
marine_chain = default
marine_pistol = default
marine_ssg = default
marine_rail = default
marine_berserk = default
marine_plasma = default
marine_rocket = default
marine_fist = default
marine_saw = default
marine_shotty = default

@zdoom_marines = 0

qty = scarce

-- END --

miketheratguy

  • Posts: 30
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 01:19:15 PM »
Yeah I definitely thought that there would only be a low chance of getting any information about that map but I thought it was worth a try because I liked it so much. It's a bit hard to explain what I'm looking for in a Doom map but every now and then I see one that just feels "right" and I try to figure out how to lock it down.

I've even been trying different combinations of settings with different versions of OBLIGE to see what I can produce and there are just SO many variables. Maybe this should be its own question but do you guys have an easy way of breaking down what kind of maps each version of OBLIGE was known for? I know that the release notes are out there but I mean, just as a hypothetical example of personal experience, maybe something like "version 4 was famous for maps that used lots of wide open spaces, version 5 made maps that had a better cohesive flow, version 6 was the best one for maze-like hallways", etc.?"

Thanks for the settings Herculine, I'll definitely be trying them.

Herculine

  • Doom Kitty
  • Posts: 67
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 02:59:26 PM »
@miketheratguy

No problemo.

Well, I'm certainly no expert on all Oblige versions, but from what I've seen from my most recent experiments, 6.20 seems to be good at generating switch hunts, large outdoor areas, winding monster-infested canyons that often need to be climbed and 3D floors with lots of lift platforms while 7.50 has less scenic outdoor areas and usually makes me feel like I'm infiltrating some massive fortresses, often by sneaking in through some dark caves and the 7.55 test package seems to be leaning back toward bigger outdoor areas often with the feeling that I'm approaching an ominous tower to invade. In my opinion these are all good things that make each version special, so I like to play maps generated by each.

Of course it should be noted that, when switching from one version to the next, I've found that not all the settings will produce exactly the same results. For example, "hordes" of monsters in 7.50 seems to produce a MAP01 with an average of 300-400 monsters (on the "extreme" size setting) while 6.20 will likely make a MAP01 with maybe a hundred more monsters than that on average. It really is just a matter of generating a few maps with each and finding out what works best for you.

miketheratguy

  • Posts: 30
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 03:59:56 PM »
Thanks a lot Herculine, your comments are exactly the kind of version summary that I was looking for. They echo my findings of 6.20 in particular.

It would be great if a single version were able to generate all the possible map styles but I understand that it's likely impossible given that changes to the algorithms are what's producing them in the first place. It's just so tough to decide whether to use older versions to produce maps that are open and meandering or a newer one that uses maps that are tighter and more cohesive. I selfishly want a wad that contains a bunch of both. :p

...Wait, I just thought of something. Is there a way to extract a map from a wad and combine it with other extracted (or individually generated) maps to form a sort of "greatest hits" super wad?

Herculine

  • Doom Kitty
  • Posts: 67
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 04:37:53 PM »
@miketheratguy

Slade 3 is what I use, and I've been thinking of making just such a compilation of Oblige maps that I thought were a "cut above" but Oblige just generates so many good maps now it's a massive task trying to choose!

http://slade.mancubus.net/index.php?page=downloads

miketheratguy

  • Posts: 30
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2017, 05:08:22 PM »
@miketheratguy

Slade 3 is what I use, and I've been thinking of making just such a compilation of Oblige maps that I thought were a "cut above" but Oblige just generates so many good maps now it's a massive task trying to choose!

http://slade.mancubus.net/index.php?page=downloads

I...  ...I love you.

OBLIGE is amazing, no question. Last year I became addicted to the joy of simply rolling some dice and getting a heap of new Doom levels to play. It kind of blew my mind, to be honest. This program plus Brutal Doom and GZDoom got me back into the game with a passion I hadn't had in 20 years. BUT, since I was trying so many rolls and settings with several different versions I was discovering that I'd often get a pack of decent maps but with some really memorable "keeper" maps mixed in. As you've seen, I like the larger, more open levels just as much as I like the tighter, more fortress-like levels and always wished that I didn't have to choose. Now I don't have to! I'm SO looking forward to going back through my old wads, isolating the favorite maps from each, and slapping them together into a super Mike mod that only contains the best. I no longer have to be so concerned about which version to use and can simply poach my favorite results from all of them!

Only two questions: Is there a limit to how many maps I can cram together into a wad, and can I combine maps that I generated using OBLIGE's Doom AND Doom II templates? I use ZDL to manage my mods and it expects me to specify which IWAD to launch the game with.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 05:27:53 PM by miketheratguy »

Herculine

  • Doom Kitty
  • Posts: 67
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 05:40:59 AM »
Only two questions: Is there a limit to how many maps I can cram together into a wad, and can I combine maps that I generated using OBLIGE's Doom AND Doom II templates? I use ZDL to manage my mods and it expects me to specify which IWAD to launch the game with.

Yes and no and yes.

If you use a ZDoom based sourceport you can use a MAPINFO lump to make a WAD of 100 levels if you want, and even have 30 secret levels in it. The ZDoom wiki is a good place to look for tutorials on how to do that sort of thing.

https://zdoom.org/wiki/MAPINFO

I seem to recall seeing on Realm667 a texture package that will allow you to play Doom maps in Doom II. It should still be there in the texture resources section.

http://www.realm667.com/index.php/en/texture-stock-mainmenu-152-97360/doom-style-mainmenu-153-87237

And just for the record, I use ZDL as well. For me it is the most intuitive and user-friendly launcher that I have found.

EDIT: It also just occurred to me that I should probably mention here that if you're using SLADE 3 to shuffle OBLIGE maps around or copy+paste them, be sure that when you rename the map that you also rename the GL header corresponding to that map. For example, if you take a E1M8 and rename it MAP08 make sure to also rename GL_E1M8 to GL_MAP08. Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough about these things to accurately explain what bad things might happen if you fail to do that, but I don't imagine that it would be anything good.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:23:54 AM by Herculine »

juizzysquirt

  • Posts: 10
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 09:34:27 AM »
If you use a ZDoom based sourceport you can use a MAPINFO lump to make a WAD of 100 levels if you want, and even have 30 secret levels in it. The ZDoom wiki is a good place to look for tutorials on how to do that sort of thing.

https://zdoom.org/wiki/MAPINFO

Not just that, with MAPINFO you don't need to follow MAPxx or ExMx conventions, only limit is that zdoom parses only the first 8 characters of map lumps and AFAIK you can't use lump names that are already used in same namespace (MAPINFO, DECORATE, etc). This still leaves him at least billions of available combinations, so I think he's going to reach the limits of his computer's RAM first.  ;)

Herculine

  • Doom Kitty
  • Posts: 67
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 12:00:16 PM »
@b00mstick

That's also a good point. I like to make compilations of maps by certain mappers where the wads were only individually uploaded to the id Games Archives, and I usually use some part of the theme name in each of the map names and the MAPINFO. For example, the first map in my Gene Bird compilation is "Nukage", but in the numbering scheme it's BNDLY01 as it's part of his "Blind Alley" set.

miketheratguy

  • Posts: 30
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 07:19:14 PM »
Here's that part where I have to be lame and say "I appreciate the info but I'm afraid that it's a bit over my head", lol.

While awaiting the response last night I looked around and saw another person (on another site) recommending Doom Builder for separating and repacking maps into wads. Since I'm (only vaguely) familiar with that program I thought I'd give it a try to see if it was as easy as the person said. It seems like it is - I loaded a wad, clicked the map I wanted, and saved it as its own new wad. It seemed like it would be just as easy to open a different wad and drop that one in, at least from what I could tell. I'm not against using Slade3 but so far the program I already had seemed to do the trick, is there an advantage to one over the other if I don't plan on creating my own maps?

I'm a bit confused about the textures as well. I followed the link and downloaded the Doom > Doom II texture pack, loaded it in ZDL, and tried to load an OBLIGE map that I'd generated for the original Doom while telling ZDL to use the Doom II iwad. Instead the game took me straight to the standard first level of Doom II. Was there something else I should have done in addition to loading those textures?

EDIT: Well at least I got half of it figured out! I forgot that I've been using a hi-res texture pack forever and if it's loaded first the Doom > Doom II textures don't appear to work. Switching the order allowed me to play a Doom map with ZDL using the Doom II iwad AND I still got the hi-res textures on top of it (with lots of apparent red errors in the bootup but so far so good, lol).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 07:35:33 PM by miketheratguy »

Herculine

  • Doom Kitty
  • Posts: 67
Re: Help me interpret someone else's Oblige settings?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 04:26:24 AM »
@miketheratguy

Personally, I would not use Doom Builder for anything unless I actually wanted to make a change to a map layout itself (or of course to create a new map from scratch). When it comes to simply moving things from one wad to another, editing a DeHackEd or MAPINFO lump or making a custom music wad, Slade 3 in my experience is the only way to go. I strongly recommend it.