Author Topic: 7.55 test package  (Read 2328 times)

propro

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2017, 10:41:56 AM »
i have to say that this is absolutely the best version of oblige i've ever seen, i'm really impressed by some of the maps generated by this version.
maps feel more realistic, gameplay is really good, as in the best gameplay oblige maps could offer. sometimes it feels like playing a real pwad which is excellent. i'd like to see more textures being used though. perhaps bringing back the old psychedelic theme from older versions? i assume there'll be more customization features later on  like in older oblige versions, since right now it's kinda limited but still offers variety and personal preferences.

https://mega.nz/#!q8dhDDKT!2763l1ICR8J_BZq49ObVEhZwdwBp3sg9o1GKaK-6NRQ
i'll mention map07 and map17 from this megawad being good examples of how unique these maps can get. i don't think i've ever seen maps like this before and i've generated hundreds of oblige maps  ranging from v2-v6.

Herculine

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2017, 05:37:35 PM »
i have to say that this is absolutely the best version of oblige i've ever seen
I'm not sure that I totally agree just yet, but I will say that I think Oblige has been in the "promised land" since v6.20. Each version has something that it seems to excel at differently than the other versions, making each version a gem in it's own way. But the maps generated by each version no longer feel "fake" and I've been enjoying playing them all. Very impressive indeed.

Glaice

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2017, 10:50:04 AM »
Put together a heavily altered 7.55 vanilla texture and prefab set. Will post it in its own thread later on.

flyingdeath

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2017, 05:18:52 AM »
So I have finished the Wad I generated. First of all some really cool things I haven't mentioned yet.

Fake secrets, switches and exits are really cool, especially fake switches, punishing the switch happy doom goer.

I really like the start room like item holders, though they might be a bit overused. I like seeing these door textures used a bit more, maybe they could be used more widely as regular doors (not too often though).

Rivers, and small flooded sections are really cool, could be used a very tiny bit more (though this is having played through only one wad, maybe I got less then average). Also occasionaly using non-liquid texture (flat) might be interesting, like the floor eroded away to reveal underlying rock (or flesh).

Armour quantity seemed spot on, though I still found the odd occasion of getting two green armours very close to each other with maybe one of them being secret, or getting green right after blue.

The massive outdoor/cave teleport traps are some of the most fun bits, wouldn't mind seeing them more often, and maybe with more monster variety. Is it possible to have a cyberdemon teleport in, this might generally be better than just finding them behind a door they can't pass.

Speaking of which, I only got one cyberdemon right at the end of map29. Is that normal. I think only two maps had a pain elemental (just one each, maybe two), though that's ok, and I got no spider masterminds.

I'm still concerned about the quantity of plasma ammo. I was wondering if having an option to make ammo quality degrade slightly as the game goes on might help, so at the end, ammo tends to get replaced by similar amounts of lesser ammo. Also maybe having even smaller rewards in many of the more obvious secrets would help too. Getting a mix of potions, spiritual armour (man, that's what its called, +1 armour is 'spiritual armour') and small shell and bullet pickups might be more appropriate most of the time.

Also, and this sounds weird, but I would like to see more boring generic secrets added, something that resembles the current monster closet. I like the secret types used at the moment, but they lose there specialness after seeing many identical copies. Also having wider secrets might make spotting those misaligned textures less consistent.

Something I would really like to see is the exit needing a quest to access. Either need a key, or need a bridge or steps raising. I think telegraphing the exit would help to lessen the feeling that a map suddenly ends without warning.

Only other thing is that lighting in the vents should be much darker.

Now I'm going to test some of the ramping options (slower weapons, faster difficulty), and also slightly less ammo and health.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention is how much I like the way key doors and switch "doors" look at the moment. I never much liked the old way of showing switch locked doors as a texture around the door.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 05:29:52 AM by flyingdeath »

Glaice

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2017, 10:16:29 AM »
https://imgur.com/gallery/IvY39

Just for some people to see before I finalize changes. 100+ images to gawk at.

andrewj

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2017, 02:49:43 AM »
I really like the start room like item holders, though they might be a bit overused. I like seeing these door textures used a bit more, maybe they could be used more widely as regular doors (not too often though).
Those doors do get some usage as entry or exit from vents (perhaps too rarely?).  Otherwise I think they usually look a bit small for entry/exit of normal rooms.

Quote
Armour quantity seemed spot on, though I still found the odd occasion of getting two green armours very close to each other with maybe one of them being secret
Yeah I will fix it so you don't get an armor item as a secret when the same room explicitly gives you an armor item (as similar for health or powerups).

Other cases are harder to fix and I don't think it is worth worrying about.

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Is it possible to have a cyberdemon teleport in
Not yet, boss monsters are never used as teleport in traps or in cages or monster closets, though it is planned to do this (once the level progression has hit a certain point, especially after you have faced the boss a few times).

Quote
Speaking of which, I only got one cyberdemon right at the end of map29. Is that normal?
It should be more.  It will depend on the Strength and RampUp settings.  The defaults may need bumping up a bit (last time I checked they seemed fine, but I can take another look).

Quote
I was wondering if having an option to make ammo quality degrade slightly as the game goes on might help
Ammo *quantity* already does degrade over the course of the map-set.

Quote
Also, and this sounds weird, but I would like to see more boring generic secrets added, something that resembles the current monster closet.
Yeah I understand.  The current secret closet is probably better used for "big" items (like powerups) and have a less ornate one for small items.

Quote
Something I would really like to see is the exit needing a quest to access. Either need a key, or need a bridge or steps raising. I think telegraphing the exit would help to lessen the feeling that a map suddenly ends without warning.
I know a lot of good megawads do that, you find that yellow key (for example) and open it to reveal a small exit closet.  I personally find that a bit of a let down (e.g. first map of CCHEST4).  But it is probably better to do it that way, so I make a note of it.

flyingdeath

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2017, 07:07:23 AM »
Ammo *quantity* already does degrade over the course of the map-set.

I did mean quality (I had a feeling that might be confusing). I can see that (partly due to the hoarding way I play) there will be some ammo type that I will eventually max out, and still be given more.

I guess what I am stumbling towards saying, is that I feel like I am getting enough plasma ammo to kill every enemy with greater or equal toughness to a cacodemon (probably a bit of an exaggeration), and I wish that eventually I would reach a point late in a wad, where I am only getting plasma and rockets when facing vile toughness enemies or a large hoard of medium tough enemies.

Don't worry about it too much though, as it is partly an artifact of my slightly anal way of only picking up ammo when I have room for all of it. If I was being less of a try-hard, I would probably run out of plasma (and ammo in general) more readily.

And I should also say that I never once maxed out on rockets or bullets, which over 32 maps is very impressive (I like bullets being treated as premium ammo).

About the exit quest thing, I would have the exit sign above the key door, so that you know that the yellow key will get you to the exit. If you feel its a bit of a waste of a key, have switch quests be used far more often for it. The important thing is that the exit sign is visible when inaccessible, which is why I used raising a bridge as an example. They would really just be fancy exit prefabs with a bit of quest logic built in. (I think I have laboured the point a bit much.)

Also, as I'm here, backgrounds and scenics look super cool.

Also thanks for taking the time to respond.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 07:18:36 AM by flyingdeath »

Herculine

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2017, 08:20:17 AM »
https://imgur.com/gallery/IvY39

Just for some people to see before I finalize changes. 100+ images to gawk at.

Too many... screenshots... Chrome can't... load...

Seriously though, that's some great looking work Glaice.

Glaice

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2017, 08:48:50 PM »
I may need to do some final tweaking before I post a separate topic on the edits, in which Andrew may use anything he likes in it.

ScooT9

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2017, 07:29:49 AM »
I've generated a wad for Ultimate Doom and oblige has put a prefab that has a techlamp from doom 2.
I've attached a screenshot.
Did you know that i also make games?
I'm making one in the doom engine, it's called "m invasion", go check it out on moddb!

flyingdeath

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2017, 07:08:48 PM »
There's something I have been wondering. Is it possible to have some system that could rotate grammar rules by 45 degrees, so you wouldn't have to create and test a load of diagonal rules that are equivalent to some orthogonal rule. I think it might be possible, but would be horribly enlarged maybe.

Also one more minor gripe. The little niche enemies are used too frequently on default settings, in my opinion.

andrewj

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2017, 04:27:02 AM »
I've generated a wad for Ultimate Doom and oblige has put a prefab that has a techlamp from doom 2.
Oops.  Should be fixed now.

There's something I have been wondering. Is it possible to have some system that could rotate grammar rules by 45 degrees, so you wouldn't have to create and test a load of diagonal rules that are equivalent to some orthogonal rule.
It wouldn't gain much, and many things are not currently possible if they were diagonal (e.g. all stairs, closets and room joiners must be axis-aligned rectangles).

Herculine

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2017, 12:56:49 PM »
Are there any plans to add randomly-generated intermission texts to the DeHackEd patches? I know it's just a minor thing, but seeing the default intermission texts roll just feels like a mood-breaking reminder that I'm playing "replacement levels" and the latest versions of Oblige work so well that I like being able to forget that I'm playing something "artificial" because the maps feel so authentic now. (Quotes indicate the opinions of others rather than my own.)

Just tinkering around on my own, I whipped up some quick generic texts I use for Doom II:

Code: [Select]
C1TEXT = You've fought like a bat out of Hell\nbut the war is far from over.\n\nGet back in there Marine!

C2TEXT = The hordes of Hell have not been able\nto stand against you, but they've got\nplenty more where they came from.\n\nBetter reload Marine!

C3TEXT = The spawn of Hell keep coming in\nendless waves and you keep fighting\nback the tide.\n\nGive 'em as much Hell as they try to\ngive you Marine!

C4TEXT = Good work Marine! You've bravely\ndefeated the armies of Hell\nand their toughest demon masters.\n\nNow you can finally get some\nrest...\n\n...until next time...

C5TEXT = Looks like you've found one of Hell's\nmost closely guarded secrets.\n\nFind out what's going on in there\nMarine and put an end to it!

C6TEXT = Another of Hell's secrets has been\ndiscovered. Time to do what you\ndo best Marine!

Glaice

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2017, 01:18:45 PM »
I did a ZDoom compatible version of Herculine's edits, fixed a couple of grammatical (and so it would work in LANGUAGE lump) errors and made the first line slightly longer.

miketheratguy

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Re: 7.55 test package
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2017, 01:29:23 PM »
I don't have any useful details but for whatever it's worth I thought that my test of 7.55 was pretty fun. Obviously without most of the architectural options I wasn't able to set many things to my liking but I found that the default settings produced a map that was fun to play and felt fairly cohesive and professional. I'm going to try making a few more and see how they feel.

I did notice that the enemy presence setting seemed to be ignored, I set it on low and got a horde of maybe ten monsters right up a set of curved stairs at the very beginning of the map (though I am absolutely in love with the curved stairs, as I mentioned a long time ago, so I was thrilled to see them). I proceeded to die twice before getting to the end of the map so again, the monster number setting seemed broken, but the layout of what I was able to experience felt really good.

From what I could tell the monster type setting was NOT ignored, which was pretty great. I'm so used to telling OBLIGE to only give me scarce creatures of a certain type only to see them all throughout the level anyway. The setting looks to be working now. I'll do more testing to see if I keep getting similar results but yeah, I really liked the look of the one map I tried so far.