Author Topic: Monster control not working?  (Read 374 times)

TiZ

  • Posts: 8
Monster control not working?
« on: February 09, 2017, 10:29:47 AM »
Okay, so... one thing I noticed about Oblige 7 is that it seems to have a huge boner for Cacodemons, especially putting huge groups of them in one place. So I thought, "No problem. I'll lessen the frequency of Cacodemons in monster control and that should help." It didn't seem to change anything when I set it to Less, so I then set it to Scarce, and things seemed okay until I ran into this pleasant little room in E1M3. I initially thought that HXRTC Project was doing something crazy, so I ran the wad in regular Doom to get this screenshot just to be sure.

What gives with this? I'm not sure if I can beat this room without cheating, especially not in HXRTC which makes Cacos generally much stronger. :c Am I misunderstanding what the monster control option does, or is it just not working? I also have the general monsters setting set to More. Does that cause groups to be bigger rather than creating more groups?

TiZ

  • Posts: 8
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 09:21:57 AM »
This should probably be moved to bug reports; I'm growing more certain this is some sort of bug now and not user error.

Can someone chime in with some hypothesizing or postulating, maybe? Because I just encountered this on E4M1. Map ONE! This is nearly unwinnable with the resources the map provides me. And this is after I hacked the monster definitions to lower cacos' probability to 20 and density to 0.4, since it seemed like monster control wasn't working. Now it seems like the probability and density mechanisms themselves aren't working. I'm sick of cacos, can someone shed some light on this, please?

Attachments don't seem to be working; imgur link: http://imgur.com/VGZwguO

Demios

  • Posts: 4
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2017, 09:46:31 AM »
Meanwhile , you could play with brutal doom, one can 1 shot cacodemons with the double barrel if close enough, also the faster gameplay will actually help you not getting bored to tears in the later maps when it get more in the veins of: open a door stay behind said door and splat the 30-40 demons the other side of said door in a rince and repeat pattern... OR when the rng is especially meanie and spam you with 1-2 cyber demon/mastermind per maps. just don't put a jump key and you wont be able to cheat.

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2017, 03:10:43 PM »
Demios, not everyone will want altered gameplay or play Brutal Doom.

Demios

  • Posts: 4
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 03:47:41 PM »
Indeed mr Glaice , thats what the (You could) part is for! Could isn't must ;)

Herculine

  • Posts: 21
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 09:59:59 PM »
TiZ, does the room giving you the Cacodemon problem contain a map objective like a key or a keyed door, or the exit?

One thing I've noticed about the monster control settings is that, even if you set a particular monster as "scarce", sometimes OBLIGE 7.50 will still place these monsters as guardians of map objectives. For example, I particularly hate Arch-Viles, but even with them set as scarce, I can still expect to find them in several maps guarding the exit, sometimes even in groups of 3 or 4. I'm fine with this though, since it makes sense to me that map objectives should have tougher monsters guarding them.

Also, you mention having the monster quantity set to "more" which, I believe, does indeed generate larger groups of the same types of monsters, but I did not see mention of what setting you are using for monster variety. I think if that is left at the default, you will indeed see rooms filled with a single type of monster.

I don't have anything to do with the development of OBLIGE, of course, but I've been playing with it a lot lately so hopefully my observations can be of some help.

TiZ

  • Posts: 8
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2017, 06:24:18 AM »
Hey guys, thanks for chiming in.

Demios:
I hate Brutal Doom but I am running with modified gameplay with HXRTC Project. I ran the first screenshot in Vanilla. Besides, I prefer gameplay mods that don't throw balance totally out of whack. Like, if it's balanced in Vanilla, it should stay balanced with the mod.

Herculine:
That room in the first screenshot did have a key. The room in the second shot, however, did not. Interesting observation, though.

All:
I think I realized something that might be related to this issue. I usually generate wads for Ultimate Doom because I prefer the episodic format, but when I made some wads for Doom 2, I noticed that there weren't nearly as many Cacos. Is Monster Control busted for Ultimate Doom, maybe? Taking a look through the game defintion .lua files for Ultimate Doom, it does seem like monster preferences get overridden somewhere in the chain.

andrewj

  • Developer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2017, 05:16:19 PM »
There are several factors at play :

(1) as said earlier, guarding monsters are chosen with different logic than normal monsters, and that logic may not handle the monster control settings as well as it should.

(2) each "zone" (large section) of a map has a "monster palette", where some monsters are skipped and other monsters are made more likely of occurring.

(3) rooms have a "monster pressure", e.g. some rooms are marked to be quiet-ish and some rooms are marked to be intensive-ish.  But that mainly affects the quantity of the chosen monsters, not their toughness.

(4) if the monster selection in a room may consist entirely of monsters that are supposed to be rare (due to default settings or user settings).  To ensure the quantity quota is met, some of those monsters may be used more than they normally would be.

So I'm not saying there is not a problem, just that it can be difficult to know what exactly has caused the problem, or whether you just got a particularly unlucky roll of the die.

Herculine

  • Posts: 21
Re: Monster control not working?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2017, 06:27:31 PM »
After testing half a dozen Plutonia MAP01s this evening, I'm inclined to believe that this is not really a bug but just an occasional fluke of the randomness. However, I can also confirm that it does actually happen.

Generally with a MAP01 I get mostly the expected mix of zombie soldiers and imps with demons and lost souls, with the occasional cacodemon or hell knight in the key rooms and chaingunners (and the rare revenant) appearing in the ambushes. In one map largely populated by demons and specters I was even impressed that OBLIGE deemed it appropriate to give me a chainsaw in the starting room. :D

But (using the same settings as the rest except for a different texture theme) in one MAP01 out of the six, after I got past the first keyed door and especially after the second, I realized that it was definitely a cacodemon map. The room containing the third key was full of them, with a hell knight thrown in just for fun. I didn't find the encounter unbalanced since I had plenty of shotgun shells to deal with them while luring them into a single file through a doorway, but the fight definitely made me think of this forum post and I thought I should tell the story.

(I'm including the data text from the generated megawad to show the settings I had used.)

So don't be too discouraged TiZ. The cacodemons don't necessarily have a thing just for you. ;D