Author Topic: OBLIGE 7.50 released!  (Read 3170 times)

Glaice

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2016, 04:14:41 PM »
Also remember the tech_Computer fix? You'll need an entity_remap so green torches don't show up. Either that or removing "torches1" from the wall_groups list.

Like this:

Code: [Select]
    entity_remap =
    {
      green_torch = "lamp"
    }

:)

EDIT: "torches1" can be used in the Doom1 tech theme if the above is used so the green torches are changed to normal lamps.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 10:33:01 PM by Glaice »

andrewj

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2016, 12:37:09 AM »
@scrooloose: hope you guys enjoy that doom session!

@Glaice: I left torches1 out of the wall_groups in tech_Computer.  The entity_remap for green torches is kinda hacky, really only there for the dropoff start prefab and I'll probably do it a better way later.

Glaice

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2016, 08:23:59 PM »
I know the screenshots below are a little nitpicky but I think episode 1 would look better using the SUPPORT2 and SHAWN2 textures along with DOORSTOP as seen on the normal door prefabs. :)

Any ideas on what to replace the unused Wolfenstein 3D textures with yet?

andrewj

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2016, 12:54:17 AM »
I know the screenshots below are a little nitpicky but I think episode 1 would look better using the SUPPORT2 and SHAWN2 textures along with DOORSTOP as seen on the normal door prefabs. :)
Yeah, though I personally consider Doom 1 to be borderline worth keeping, so I'm not very motivated to do heaps of work on really polish it (like making lots of prefab variations).

Quote
Any ideas on what to replace the unused Wolfenstein 3D textures with yet?
I might use some of them for the logos and "BLACK" material and free up some of the cement textures (except for Doom 1 of course).

I would actually like to be able to add new textures properly, e.g. using TX_START/END for ZDoom ports and PNAMES + TEXTURE2 for the other source ports.  Then it is not necessary to re-use existing textures.  Dunno when I will tackle that though.

Another thing that is bugging me is not having the original GSTFONTx texture (reusing it for the water fall), so I am thinking of reusing another one.

The ability to be able to truly add new textures would open up some nice possibilities, so I think I'll make that a high priority task.

Glaice

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2016, 09:07:27 AM »
Using the TX_START/END is what I did to heavily edit 6.20 and add dozens of textures  and flats, including adding back in CEMENT# and most Doom1 textures that the community put together into one patch.

Seeing the bulk of Doom1 stuff is already there, why not get some of the community on Doomworld that is already interested in OBLIGE to lighten a little bit of the work you speak of while you focus on higher priority tasks?

flyingdeath

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2016, 07:46:09 PM »
About the unused texture, and this is not that serious a suggestion, I think the little maps oblige shows when it generates levels look pretty cool in the current version. I thought whilst looking at them that they would look cool if used as a little wall map on some levels (obviously the map should match the level). I imagine this would be awkward to implement though.

Also the secret levels need some kind of easter egg, something maybe to replace commander keen. Maybe your face as a cacodemon, or is that waaaay too silly. (Actually that suggestion sounds kinda insulting, I don't mean it that way).

Anyone else got an idea for an easter egg.

andrewj

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2016, 10:55:52 PM »
Seeing the bulk of Doom1 stuff is already there, why not get some of the community on Doomworld that is already interested in OBLIGE to lighten a little bit of the work you speak of while you focus on higher priority tasks?
I need to document how the prefabs work, especially the Lua definitions, before expecting anyone to make their own.

And it is planned, but I need to finish getting the new modding wiki set up, which will make document creation easier when done.

@flyingdeath: yeah maps as textures would be neat.  Needs two things to be finished first: (1) support new textures, as discussed above, (2) the rework and consolidation of all the image generation systems.

I plan to show an Oblige logo or two in the secret maps, especially the cool one Glaice made.

Another idea for the secret maps is having a special theme which is a bit like the old psychedelic theme, but human made so it doesn't do port-breaking things like use untileable textures on tall walls.

Dante

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2016, 08:38:03 PM »
I'm on my third playthrough now, and I would have liked to upload my current wad file, but the maximum file size atm is 6000k. :(

I do have a few more Q's though;

- For one, what would you make of making an internal, very basic 'tagging' system for how OBLIGE determines level making? Say you set up what texture sets, prefabs, monsters, level names, etc. etc., with a series of tags and OBLIGE will match everything under that tag and throw it into the level. This would be mostly used for spreading out features of a theme throughout the game so that each level will be something different, and less prone to being somewhat 'samey'.

So for instance, if a level might have "Activate the/Something Power Station" as its name, you can expect the level will predominately feature computer terminals and such prefabs, the flashing walls columns, arachanatrons or zombies, and not have any toxic waste barrels or sewage liquids, because they don't have that tag. Another suggestion would probably be for whenever levels containing "Storage" or "Shipping" in its title, apart from the mass placement of boxes, you might or not find cornucopias of health and ammo that stand out of the normal rules of config settings.

- For two, will you later add several misc linedef elements and other things such as switch activated lighting, more floor based traps (monster pit, liquid traps), points-of-no return doors (probably best before a boss fight), and temporary switched doors in some form?

- And three, although I asked this same basic question before for earlier versions, but in terms of V7, what do you think of returning some of the prefabbed specific areas from said earlier versions that could appear in at most once per level or the entire game; things such as zombies standing behind a computer desk, maybe with a key card, like some entrance security station, or maybe the torture chamber cutout with lots of cages and corpses nearby? Although some new things like rows of candles on ledges, pentagrams on the floor, and columns of the chained nearby would also be nice additions. This could require separate handling logic than standard prefabs to pull something off like this, though.

andrewj

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2016, 01:12:52 AM »
I'm on my third playthrough now, and I would have liked to upload my current wad file, but the maximum file size atm is 6000k.
Get a dropbox or google drive account, or use a file-sharing site like mediafire.

Quote
- For one, what would you make of making an internal, very basic 'tagging' system for how OBLIGE determines level making? Say you set up what texture sets, prefabs, monsters, level names, etc. etc., with a series of tags and OBLIGE will match everything under that tag and throw it into the level.
Something similar to that is planned, especially for prefabs.

It needs a "critical mass" of prefabs though.  Once the number of prefabs reaches a certain amount, like 8 or 10 or so, then simply picking them randomly is not enough, and it needs a higher-level system to pick groups of prefabs to use on each map.

So yeah, a system of "tags" or "flavors" is probably the way to go.

For integration with level names -- that would be nice, but I am probably going to do that differently that you might expect.  Trying to make the map following a generated level name is complicated, as we need to honor user settings, so my rough plan is to create the map first, and pick a level name afterwards, limiting the name to ones that match the generated map to some degree.

Tags could work with that plan, pick the tags first (probably do the whole wad at once), and allow the tags to influence the level names.

Quote
- For two, will you later add several misc linedef elements and other things such as switch activated lighting, more floor based traps (monster pit, liquid traps), points-of-no return doors (probably best before a boss fight), and temporary switched doors in some form?
Yes, eventually.

Quote
- And three, although I asked this same basic question before for earlier versions, but in terms of V7, what do you think of returning some of the prefabbed specific areas from said earlier versions that could appear in at most once per level or the entire game; things such as zombies standing behind a computer desk, maybe with a key card, like some entrance security station, or maybe the torture chamber cutout with lots of cages and corpses nearby?
Not sure yet.

Using specific monsters in a prefab is going to lead to bug reports like "I set monsters to NONE but some zombies still appeared!!!"

It would be nice if the levels could feel less generic, where each part feels like it has a purpose to it.  Dunno how to really achieve that though.

flyingdeath

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2016, 02:13:25 AM »
It would be nice if the levels could feel less generic, where each part feels like it has a purpose to it.  Dunno how to really achieve that though.

Maybe by gradually extending the idea of flavour/tag usage. Though a lot of flavour can be generic combos, some could be much more specific, and limited.

As an example, medic room, using light clean textures, appropriate prefabs, more health items. Limited to 2 usages per map, and having an very high chance of being a dead end, joined to a corridor, and likely to have a large window.

I think it would be cool if these kind of flavours could effect a large number of things, and also be limited in the kind of environments they connect to.

Another example, sewers/tunnels, usually enter via a switched door (bars) leading down. Greatly increased chance of switched doors (not leading to new rooms, but blocking junctions), and a very high chance to sprawl across a large area.

The point I want to get across is the idea of certain elements that can only be proceeded and followed by certain other elements, all of which can only be used a limited amount.

An example of this. A hotel lobby can lead to corridors with lots of bedrooms down them. The corridors can also lead to an exit into an ally. The hotel lobby can also lead directly to the street, with could link to an industrial complex. Inside the complex could be a way into the sewers, which could link to caves etc.

This in combination with things like; keys (and locked doors) are likely in hotels and very likely in industrial, and military locations (especially to enter), switches are used inside techy, liquid processing etc. All that would help contextualise the environment, and help the maps tell a story.

I guess these would be like shape grammars, but effecting theme/flavour.

andrewj

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2016, 06:49:33 PM »
The point I want to get across is the idea of certain elements that can only be proceeded and followed by certain other elements, all of which can only be used a limited amount.

An example of this. A hotel lobby can lead to corridors with lots of bedrooms down them. The corridors can also lead to an exit into an ally. The hotel lobby can also lead directly to the street, with could link to an industrial complex. Inside the complex could be a way into the sewers, which could link to caves etc.
Yes, using "tags" to limit what types of rooms can connect to each other should be a viable way to achieve that kind of thing.

Perhaps first it needs a fleshing out of room types, as right now OBLIGE only considers rooms to be "Building" (indoor), "Outdoor", "Cave" and "Hallway".

 

Glaice

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2016, 10:30:03 AM »
The usage of Arch-Viles as boss/guard monsters should have a limit (I set 2 in mine and boss replacement being the chaingunner) because not only they can do heavy damage/kill the player with 2 or more attacks together but they can be an irritant if mid to higher level monsters are accompanied with them bunched up in the higher quantity choices to be ammo sponges trying to kill them.

That and guaranteeing some sort of cover because I've had an instance of teleporting into a room with mid level monsters and an Arch-Vile with zero cover one time.

andrewj

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2016, 09:11:55 PM »
The usage of Arch-Viles as boss/guard monsters should have a limit
Yeah.

OBLIGE has no concept of "cover", so cannot guarantee anything there.

sidav

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2016, 03:11:50 AM »
Andrewj, thanks for the new version! I definitely love it more than any of the previous ones!

flyingdeath

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Re: OBLIGE 7.50 released!
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2016, 10:41:33 AM »
The usage of Arch-Viles as boss/guard monsters should have a limit...

But you should also be careful not to tone it back too far, as some of the crazy 'unfair' challenges can be the highlights of a wad, forcing one to adapt and perhaps use some novel tactics.

This also gave me an idea for an additional option for monsters; 'difficulty spike', ranging in strength (rather than frequency), which is how high above the normal difficulty the game can go, and effects both the strength and number of enemies.

Most of the great games I can remember have some pretty big spikes in difficulty, and whether by accident or design, it creates memorable moments and exhilarating victories. Also I desire being able to make relatively quiet maps with some huge spikes in difficulty.
Whilst it may seem like an unimportant thing to add, I think it is something that makes sense to be user controlled.


Also been thinking about trap usage. I'm not quite sure how the difficulty of a trap is determined, but here's my thoughts on it:

First determine the priority of the target of the trap.

Top priority targets are keys, and anything that is essentially unavoidable in order to finish the map. Although oblige does not do them, a trap that spanned a corridor that must be passed would also be top priority.

High priority items are new weapons, soul and mega spheres and blue armour, maybe also large plasma packs.

Low priority items are weapons you already have, green armour, 25 health pack, other large ammo packs etc. Also an avoidable trap with no item associated with it would be low priority.

Low priority targets should only have small traps associated with them (couple of guys on early maps, couple of revenants on later ones.)
Also you should break even or make a net gain on ammo pickups. For example collecting a shotgun for its ammo, only to spawn 10 imps is a bit cruel. (not that this very likely happens in oblige at the moment)

Higher priority targets can have tougher traps associated with them, but don't have to, its fine to have a small trap, though it should probably tend towards difficulty especially on later maps.

Dead ends that don't have to be revisited can have huge, over the top traps, that are better run from, though in this case the enemies should always spawn or be released in the same room as the trap. Also the priority is possibly less important in this case. (This should probably be optional as it may frustrated completionists).

Also because running for traps is sometimes a legitimate option, ammo (and health) for closet monsters should tend to be in closets for that trap, so if you avoid the fight, you don't make a net ammo profit.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 11:00:20 AM by flyingdeath »