Author Topic: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread  (Read 20741 times)

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 11:32:59 AM »
So that handles up to 9 quadrillion possibilities, which is a tremendous amount of combinations.

Dante

  • Posts: 108
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2015, 02:30:43 PM »
Some more questions for V7 as it stands right now:

- Have you at some point tried, or will try out of curiosity, hybridizing V6's indoors with outsides' algorithm from V7, to the extent of replacing the 'rocky.wad' border type? Perhaps by making each fold of the border with a decoration on top of it for added scenery?

- If exits are to take place inside borders once again, can there be a linedef instead of a switch, as so the next map will appear to start where the previous map would leave off?

- Much farther into the future, what do you think of the idea of implementing some more ZDoom features? Things such as support for slanted floors, rooms-over-rooms, heightmaps with buildings and wilderness, persistent levels and hubs like Strife or Hexen, as if each of the 32 levels is its own little mini-world with objectives to accomplish. Of course this would be highly up to debate of how each user would actually play this out.

- Assuming you implement anything ZDoom at all, could there be an experimental 'add new/delete' function to each of the modules where you tell Oblige to look inside a .pk3 for its DECORATE.txt and look for the newly defined things, and add them to the quantity list?

Will

  • Posts: 6
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2015, 04:43:58 PM »
Hello sir. I got few questions.

Can V7 create a Doom Deathmatch maps?
Does V7 support a other games, like Hexen, Heretic and Quake1? :)

redrage

  • Posts: 62
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 11:55:11 AM »
For title generator, it could support bitmap fonts -- the whole thing is just a bit of fun and I'm not sure it is worth it, but they would certainly look better.

By all means keep it fun. You can and should be proud of what you have created and I think a custom generated title graphic is a really great way of showing it. While the current results leave something to be desired I would not put improving it high on your priority list unless you enjoy doing so. Ill admit i'd love to see support for a bitmap font not only because it will look better but it will also be fitting from that era of gaming.

It is really a novelty feature when its compared to Oblige's core functions though so i'm fine with it in its current state (its still a fun feature as it is). Maybe ill mess around with a custom bitmap font myself just for fun. If i actually finish it and it turns out nice you can always decide later on whether you deem it fun or worthy to implement bitmap font support.

Yeah I want to avoid rooms where you end up just shooting all the monsters funnelling toward the entrance door(way).  Not sure exactly how, but having decorative prefabs (even just some crates) will help.  Also some fences between outdoor rooms should be higher.

I definately feel prefabs will help as will your idea for heightened fences. Don't forget to make the higher (visblocking) fences sound blocking. I also feel that outside area's may benefit from getting segmented into sound zones, even if there is no specific architectural reason for it. Sound travels without limit in the doom engine. It has to be actively maintained in outside area's which are not hermetically sealed (like doors do), even if its clearly artificial.

General good practices (as we discussed before):
- Dont use bars if you can also use a door; even with soundblocking linedefs they add little value and create leaks.
- Only use windows in walls that seperate inside and outside. Preferably only on scenic outsides (good for paralax but no monsters to shoot at).
- Make windows soundblocking if you have to use them.

I thought I was on to something with making almost all monsters deaf but from what I can see this is something you already do (opened a 6.2 map). Perhaps this will really come into its own with more/bigger prefabs so the effect will be more pronounced.

Red

De-M-oN

  • Posts: 126
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 01:11:43 PM »
Quote
- Dont use bars if you can also use a door; even with soundblocking linedefs they add little value and create leaks.

I also dont like them that much..

They just cause mass infighting :S

They're very common, thats the main problem. Any way to reduce the probability oblige creates these? If they're rare I wouldnt mind these and it would be even funny. But its too common imo.

kop9000

  • Posts: 108
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 01:18:47 PM »
I have a suggestion.

Maybe the developer will upload daily new test map?

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 03:23:14 PM »
I don't like the idea of soundblocking fences.

redrage

  • Posts: 62
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2015, 09:00:12 AM »
Any particular reason?  :)

My suggestion for soundblocking was in case you have fences outside essentially serving as walls.

This is what i meant with visblocking; visually blocking. Imagine them as having a wall around a garden that is just above head height. You will keep the outside theme while gaining the ability to have them block sound. This could be a good way to avoid agroing all outside monsters at once and have them funnel towards you which honestly is not very fun.

Red

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2015, 10:21:36 AM »
Visually blocking is fine, but not sound. That's just my thoughts.

De-M-oN

  • Posts: 126
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 11:11:59 AM »
Then cacos wouldnt come up the fences anymore. I would dislike sound blocking due to this too.

flyingdeath

  • Posts: 216
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2015, 01:51:34 PM »
I do think controlling fliers is defiantly something that will need looking at eventually. Whilst being ambushed by cacos in outdoor areas can add a lot to oblige maps, currently it is an unintended emergent property, and as such tends to make some earlier areas harder than intended, whilst emptying a later area.

As far as I remember (and please tell me if I have misremembered), it takes 2 sound blocking lines to actually block a sound, so kind of arbitrarily dividing outdoor areas with sound blockers would probably not have any noticeable downside. But I think sometimes outdoor areas should also purposely not use sound blocking, but take the flier migration into account.

redrage

  • Posts: 62
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2015, 01:56:59 PM »
I do think controlling fliers is defiantly something that will need looking at eventually. Whilst being ambushed by cacos in outdoor areas can add a lot to oblige maps, currently it is an unintended emergent property, and as such tends to make some earlier areas harder than intended, whilst emptying a later area.

Yes, and its not just limited to fliers. Agro'd monsters always know where a player is  regardless of sightlines. This means that even if monsters can't get to you right now they will pool behind the entrance once you get there creating a funnel when entering the area and having no monsters while actually crossing the area (be it a room or outside).

As far as I remember (and please tell me if I have misremembered), it takes 2 sound blocking lines to actually block a sound, so kind of arbitrarily dividing outdoor areas with sound blockers would probably not have any noticeable downside. But I think sometimes outdoor areas should also purposely not use sound blocking, but take the flier migration into account.

You are absolutely correct on the two lines. So its a rather soft effect, if you choose to use a single line. This is also why I think the sound sectoring would be very efficient if you use single linedefs, even if there are no direct architectural reasons for it. Its not like all monsters instantly stand there without purpose. Monsters will still trigger on sight or when projectiles hit inside their zone. The difference between sight and sound is that sight is actually blocked by visibility (well duh) and sound is not. Hence why sight triggering is much more phased then sound triggering.

Red

PS
For clarity this means that if you have a fencewall with a single soundblocking linedef and you make a sound, caco's will still rise and peek over the wall (if they are not set to be deaf). The only difference will be that the area's next to this one which also have a soundblocking linedef won't have their monsters participate (unless they see the player of course) because the sound wont reach them. I think this is very beneficial to fun, phased play, where you fight monsters inside their designated area's (or close to it).

This is probably why the 2 lines to block sound was originally programmed to have that behavior.

De-M-oN

  • Posts: 126
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2015, 04:03:26 PM »
sounds like Doom needs a better ai ;)

sgt Mark? optimize it further please xD

On the other hand it isnt that stupid to guard the entrance though.

They just should stop to infight and shoot against each other xD

Glaice

  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 1115
  • Veteran OBLIGE modder
    • The Doom Video Vault
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2015, 05:59:54 PM »
Then cacos wouldnt come up the fences anymore. I would dislike sound blocking due to this too.

That's why I set mine (the fences) to Impassable. Changing the side scenics (mountains) and certain fences will prevent that from happening.

sounds like Doom needs a better ai ;)

sgt Mark? optimize it further please xD

On the other hand it isnt that stupid to guard the entrance though.

They just should stop to infight and shoot against each other xD

No, no no no please. Changing the AI changes Doom considerably.

De-M-oN

  • Posts: 126
Re: Oblige V7 Ongoing Development Discussion Megathread
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2015, 06:37:07 PM »
There are so often moments where I wish a mod for a better ai.
Brutal Doom / Project Brutality offer this and its fun! But still not perfect. I would love some descent 2 ai mechanics too: unpredictable wandering and movement, guarding, guarding around a corner, and so on.
And I also like it that descent's ai is different for each enemy. So a heavy hulk is very defensive, while small enemies are very aggressive and offensive. The latter would greatly fit to lost souls, while a mancubus could be a defensive enemy, because of its slow movement and its attack is good for farther distances as well. Or guarding around a corner would give you a nice fireball surprise :)
You also could do sniper zombies, which stay as far away as possible instead of the constant moving to the player.

Quote
That's why I set mine (the fences) to Impassable. Changing the side scenics (mountains) and certain fences will prevent that from happening.
But thats it. I dont want stop this happening. I like this.