Author Topic: STICKIED: Possible Games  (Read 14592 times)

andrewj

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2010, 05:58:24 AM »
Quote from: "kmrblue1027"
If it's all right with you Andrew I'm going to attempt to make an Icon of Sin map if it will be included in Oblige. It may take awhile for me to complete though.
Sure thing, go for it.

Quote from: "leileilol"
Unfortunately there's no legal way to obtain the game
Yeah that's gonna be the road-block.  The game sounds interesting though, perhaps GOG will pick it up sometime.

deskx

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 05:12:52 PM »
Quote
Generating maps directly in the engine's format is the way I'd want to do it, for the same reasons as Quake:

    * convenience to users (most people wouldn't know how to use the compiling tools)
    * speed (I can take advantage of OBLIGE's grid to compile visibility info much faster than it would normally take)
    * robustness (the way OBLIGE's CSG works means that leaks never happen)
    * flexibility (I'm not limited by what the tools can do, e.g. I can implement my own lighting algorithms)

I understand that, however, can't you give the option of exporting to .MAP (Quake) or .T3D (Unreal)? I don't see a reason not to do it. Most people that still play Quake or Unreal are mod-savvy enough to compile maps, at least, i never knew anyone that enjoyed playing good'old quake and did not know how to compile a map. And that's Quake, Unreal is much easier.

By the way:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/t3dexporters/

andrewj

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2010, 09:28:42 PM »
Quote from: "deskx"
I understand that, however, can't you give the option of exporting to .MAP (Quake) or .T3D (Unreal)?
I haven't said that I wouldn't have such an option.  It's in the WISHLIST.

But I know that some maps will fail to build (due to leak errors), leading to complaints and an expectation that I should "fix" the problem in OBLIGE somehow.  But I don't think it can be fixed in OBLIGE, it's the Quake 1/2/3 build tools that are at fault (lacking robustness).

So that's why I am reluctant to add such a feature.

We'll see what happens though.

leileilol

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2010, 11:36:51 PM »
Quote from: "ajapted"
Quote from: "leileilol"
Unfortunately there's no legal way to obtain the game
Yeah that's gonna be the road-block.  The game sounds interesting though, perhaps GOG will pick it up sometime.

Here's an official demo. It's not really sanity checked...
Project Leader of etc., a free first person shooter based on etc. licensed under the etc. license

andrewj

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 11:15:26 PM »
Quote from: "leileilol"
Here's an official demo. It's not really sanity checked...
Cheers, will try it tonight when I can see something (no brightness control grrrr).

blackjar72

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 12:30:57 PM »
Quote from: "eurasianbadger"
- unlike DooM and Heretic, Hexen has linear, heavily scripted progression. Levels in DooM and Heretic generally offer more freedom of movement, they are more arena-like. Oldschool level design. Levels of Hexen are more like those in modern FPS games, where you progress from room to room and watch fancy scripted scenes.
- lots puzzle items with arbitrary uses. You take Flame Mask from one level and use it in ice level to melt ice. You collect gears and put them in a clock tower. You collect gemstone planets and put them in sockets in walls.
- the two above mean that you could generate Hexen levels in the same way as you do with Heretic and Doom, but they would be more like DooM and Heretic levels than Hexen levels.
- I hate to admit it, but lots of Hexen revolves around finding hidden switches and passages, breaking stained glass etc. Hexen is basically filled with mandatory secret areas - and this is probably one of main reasons the game wasn't very popular. Generating secret areas randomly is hard.

These things are probably not important, only the hub aspect -- the generated levels would be used for killing sprees, not puzzle stuff.  Deep lava that can't be jumped out of could be replaced with death-drop pits, shallow ones could stay lava (if the builder can't tell the different, its should all be lava).  Non-injuring water would be needed for the stalkers, of course.  Keys, good, but no need for puzzle stuff.  Just letting it be like Doom with Hexen characters, weapons, and monsters is what I'd like to see from Hexen levels personally.  Just my 2 cents.

labmonkey999

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2010, 12:15:26 AM »
Quote from: "deskx"
Quote
Generating maps directly in the engine's format is the way I'd want to do it, for the same reasons as Quake:

    * convenience to users (most people wouldn't know how to use the compiling tools)
    * speed (I can take advantage of OBLIGE's grid to compile visibility info much faster than it would normally take)
    * robustness (the way OBLIGE's CSG works means that leaks never happen)
    * flexibility (I'm not limited by what the tools can do, e.g. I can implement my own lighting algorithms)

I understand that, however, can't you give the option of exporting to .MAP (Quake) or .T3D (Unreal)? I don't see a reason not to do it. Most people that still play Quake or Unreal are mod-savvy enough to compile maps, at least, i never knew anyone that enjoyed playing good'old quake and did not know how to compile a map. And that's Quake, Unreal is much easier.

By the way:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/t3dexporters/

I agree with deskx on this. if you can export to .map for quake you can easily convert them into other engines (quake 2, hexen 2, doom 3, half life and half life 2). You just need to change the texture names and entity names around, which I guess could be changed easily in the oblige scripts.

An experiment I did was converting an oblige level using a program called wad2map, renamed the doom monsters to half life 2 monsters and converted the doom textures to half life 2 textures and compiling it using the half life 2 sdk. It was interesting but of course all the monsters and humans started killing each other before I got to the room. Also doors didn't work and wad2map could only handle small levels, but those were problems with wad2map.

gobhuo

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Re: Possible Games
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2010, 04:22:03 AM »
Quote from: "labmonkey999"

I agree with deskx on this. if you can export to .map for quake you can easily convert them into other engines (quake 2, hexen 2, doom 3, half life and half life 2). You just need to change the texture names and entity names around, which I guess could be changed easily in the oblige scripts.


From what I understand, Oblige internally uses a similar  (in principle) format; ajapted stated that:
1. Quake tools do not compile Oblige maps properly.
2. It's Quake tools which are broken, not Oblige.
3. He doesn't want to deal with complaints about it.

number1superguy

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2010, 06:46:10 PM »
Is it possible to necro a stickied post? Well I'm doing it!

HeXen is an under-appreciated work of art. It's one of my favorite games of all time for exactly the reasons eurasianbadger said it would be hard to make a level generator for. It's essentially a puzzle FPS with tons of scripted sequences (geez, just typing that makes me want to play it). I think if a level generator can't faithfully make puzzles and scripted sequences for HeXen then it shouldn't be attempted. I'm not saying I don't want you to make a random level generator for HeXen, I actually REALLY REALLY hope you do... just don't do it if you're not going to give it the attention it deserves (and it deserves a lot of attention).

Thanks for all your hard work on Oblige, logged tons of hours fighting random baddies myself!

- Matt

andrewj

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 07:35:53 PM »
It depends on what kind of puzzles you mean.  If it boils down to just finding stuff and taking it to the right place, then that's pretty easy to create.

Other kinds of puzzles, well, what other kinds of puzzles are there? I can't think of much at the moment -- if anyone else can then please describe it.

Scripted sequences?  Again I'm not really sure what sort of stuff is possible (let alone good) beyond the simple stuff like press a switch and a door slowly lowers but some monster are also let loose or teleport in.

number1superguy

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2011, 09:29:53 AM »
HeXen's puzzles aren't really that complicated, it's mostly the size of the puzzles, along with the theatrical presentation of the levels and puzzles that make the game so beautiful.

I'll break this down a bit, because I really really really REALLY want HeXen to live on, and I think Oblige is a perfect tool to breathe new life into it. If I could click a button and have an episode of HeXen to play I'll be able to die happy :D

Anyways, HeXen levels are different from Doom in that you can traverse between levels within an episode at any time through a system of portals. There's typically a "crossroads" kind of level with a whole bunch of portals that can take you to any level within the episode. However, there are some portals in certain levels that take you to other levels, bypassing that "crossroads" level. Sorry if that's confusing, it's kind of hard to word properly.

There are some puzzles that you solve within a single level, some puzzles that you start in one level and finish in another, and even puzzles that span the entire episode. The puzzles are like Doom's where you find a key to open a door or flip a switch to move something, but since some of the puzzles are so large there's often some kind of a clue that helps you know where to go next. For example, you could find a "fire key" which should be used in a level with a lot of lava, or if you flip a switch in a room full of ice, it probably moved something in the ice world. Sometimes the puzzles are different, like there are stained glass windows that you can break, and behind 3 of them there may be a vial of health, but behind the 4th there's a switch or a long corridor.

The scripted sequences just make things more interesting, like there's a room in a cave where the floor is broken up into a bunch of segments that move up and down randomly, and you have to find a switch, and then when you flip the switch all of the segments move into maze-like position, making you have to find your way out.

I think the most important thing to preserve, though, is the beautiful atmosphere of the levels. It's like a medieval fantasy world with ambient visual effects, like leaves falling from trees. The levels all have themes, like a medieval-looking castle, a dark cave, an ice cavern, a swamp, etc. The levels are also much more detailed than Doom's, even though it runs on the same engine. Basically, a lot more polygons per room help it feel more realistic.

It can be done, and I hope you're up to the challenge, I'm just giving you a heads up that this game is way different from Doom. I'm not sure how I can help, but let me know if you need anything to make HeXen work in Oblige!

- Matt

killozapit

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2011, 03:01:44 AM »
I just found out about this program today. Just wanted to make a quick comment about Hexen and Strife. Hope it's not too much of a bump.

If you wanted to use scripted sequences and more advanced puzzles in Hexen, the best way to to do it would be to pre-compile a bunch of scripts and just include them for every map, using them as extended line types, because thats all they really are, just custom line actions (though you can also make them trigger when you collect a item or kill a monster, as things can be given specials in hexen). Or maybe different script lumps to work with different style rules. Same principle works with Strife and it's dialogue scripts. There are only a handful of really story-relevant NPCs, and most of them probably can be bypassed. In strife there are basically two kinds of maps: Towns where you can shop and talk to some NPCs, and Doom-ish kill-em-all levels, and there are only really two town levels in the game. Most of strife is very doom-like if you ask me.

As for "hubs", really, all hubs mean is you can go back to levels you already been to and have some freedom on what order you want to do levels at. Yes it might be nice to have cross-level puzzles, but Hexen is actually a shockingly linear. Strife even more so (though strictly speaking, strife doesn't even have hubs, because every map can be revisited, except for a event in the game that needs to be dealt with carefully). All you really need to do is decide what keys/locks you need in a hub and what level they should be on before you even start generating the levels. Then when generating the levels just make sure you put the feature you need in it.

However it is true that multible exits and entrances to levels are often used in both games, so connecting levels together may take some thinking. In Hexen you use portals to teleport everywhere, so just having levels have multible exits which branch the path back and fourth works (most Hexen levels really only have one entrance, at most two, except for the main hub level in each hub) and don't need to have exits be two way, as long as you can get back somehow.  Strife is much more tricky, because it's levels look and feel like one big level split up into pieces. In Strife all the levels are connected and it  just jumps to the next level by crossing invisible lines. There is some geometry overlap across the levels to make it look almost seamless.

andrewj

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2011, 08:09:57 PM »
Bumps don't matter in this thread, your (and everyone else's) insights into specific games are welcome :)

Strife's hubs sounds like Half-Life where the transition area needs to be duplicated in both source and destination maps.  That's gonna be tricky to achieve in OBLIGE...... though surely possible :P

blackjar72

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 01:36:22 PM »
I think a lot of what has been said lately is that Hexen puzzles are basically switches that require special keys (the puzzle items), with the caveat that some of them require more than one keys (or act like a sort-of compound switch) or have two linked switches (which require scripts).  Of course, if it were to seem like original Hexen some (or most) would have to do something other than open doors: for example, lowering a pedestal / doughnut with another quest item on it or raising a bridge / stair / lowing a wall, and such.  Scripts allow some interesting event and and eye candy and activating something on another level, but that could be worked on later.  When all the puzzle switches are have been activated something gets activated.

Hexen does have some non-linearity (you can choose whether to visit the guardian of fire or steel first, and start the bandlands, caves, or swamp in any order) though not always and things tend to funnel to toward the same place with fewer choices in the end.  I think the idea of treating the hub as one big level, starting on the hub level with some quests leading into others is a good idea.  The non-linear aspects actually mesh well with the puzzle system, as you basically have several quests originating from the same location (the puzzle switch).  Having some later quests go pack into part of a level previously used by another is the other key to the way Hexen is organized.

doomaniac

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Re: STICKIED: Possible Games
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2011, 08:30:09 AM »
Is possible to make Hexen levels like Doom levels?I mean,start the map,kill the monsters,take the powerups and weapons and exit.Even if it has to be one only map.